Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigthinkg
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I wholeheartedly welcome your thoughts. What else is a better format to kindle knowledge exploration than dissent..?
Shatki (Momentum) or mAyA (Mass)..?
While positive responses give me energy (Shiva) to continue, dissent gives me momentum (Shakti) to respond with more details.
Shakti is Momentum in reality, while she is perceived as mAyA (rest-mass) by us. Science says what exists in reality is momentum (and energy). Rest-Mass is the perception that covers the Universe.
Our scripture also say the same. They say it is Shakti who appears as mAyA.
Now to see mAyA as an illusion of life may be one view. To perceive mAyA as a perception of mass in place of Shakti (momentum), which is the reality, is science view.
Our scriptures say mAyA is feminine form of Vishnu and Brahma raises from the Nabhi of Vishnu. We can see it as Mass being a feminine form of Inertia (that undergoes changes) and Gravity arising from its Center.
We can also see them as God-forms and paint pictures of them as Brahma arising from the navel of Vishnu.
Vaisvanara (Particle) and Taijasa (wave)
Similar is the dual nature of photons, electrons, neutrons and other particles. They are a probability density function with a similar to wave characteristics and are also quantized to exhibit matter like characteristics.
As Brhadaranyaka Upanishad says "द्वे भाव ब्रह्मणो " - Brahman (Evolution) manifests duality. Now this duality can be seen as light and dark, life and death, limited and unlimited, defined and undefined.
We know today there are millions of shades of grey. But we may not question this understanding of light and dark and accept them as they are.
But we can also see them as Wave and Particle. In fact Mandukya Upanishad talks precisely of Vaisva-Nara of Sthula (Gross) and Taijasa (light/Wave) of Suksuma, which means Particle and Wave.
Single particle Hilbert spaces
Hilbert spaces are infinite dimensional vector spaces for mathematical modeling. If we apply Hilbert space to particles and talk of (single) particle Hilbert spaces, then depending energy, momentum, spin of the particle, it is the space of all possible states of a particle.
Yes, these particles cannot be imagined as a sthula/gross matter present in an euclidean space. But thats what exactly the Vedas and Puranas say.
Indra, Aira/sachi, Aswins, Maruts, Rudras are not mortal forms. They exist in a different world altogether, which has different rules and have different forms. They exhibit duality of Nara and Taijasa.
So there is nothing wrong in mapping Indra to baryons or Aira/sachi to electrons. Nowhere they are said to be of sthula form.
In fact if we understand the Puranas they say there are three worlds Nara-Loka (biological world), Deva-loka (world of elements/chemicals) and pAthala loka (Quantum world buried deep in atoms).
These three worlds have different beings residing in them. They have different characteristics and nature.
Yes we can understand these three lokas as world of devas, humans and nagas/danavas etc, where we visualize devas and nagas and danavas as similar to human beings. But that is our one type of understanding. We can also see them as biological, chemical and physical/quantum worlds.
Purusha as Dark-Matter
Dark-Matter is a matter that lurks in the Universe which we infer from our mathematical calculations, but are not able to detect it as it does not interact with matter. It is supposed to be 3/4th of the Universe roughly.
Purusha suktam says Purusha is 3/4th of the Universe and Aitareya Upanishad says Purusha is not influenced by Prakrti anytime at all. Purusha is this un-influenced bed on which the Yajna or sacrifice or cosmic evolution takes place.
Now is Purusha Dark-matter..? Well thats my hypothesis.
Not just that. We can talk of euclidean spacetime (four dimensional space), conflict between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, spacetime warping etc from puranic viewpoints. But thats a large answer later.
Saguna-Nirguna Brahman
Param-Atma or the Nir-guna brahman may be some kind of un-differentiated bundle of energy or consciousness or intelligence before the Universal evolution.
Due to the desire to realize itself, which means produce knowledge to understand itself, the Atma leads to what one can call as Saguna brahman whose attributes are Vishnu (Inertia), mAya(rest-mass), Brahma (Gravity), Shakti (momentum), Shiva (Energy) etc.
Once the saguna Brahman comes out, the Nirguna brahman does not control it. The saguna brahman is an isolated system which Nir-guna brahman does not interfere with it.
What I wrote here was, this Universal evolution or Yajna or Sacrifice is a result of that Param-Atma to convert some of that consciousness into Knowledge. The realization is this conversion to knowledge.
Entropy - Savitr
The knowledge in the Universe can also viewed as information or dis-order and hence entropy of it. The entropy of an isolated system keeps on increasing. That is science. I call this entropy as Savitr. (why in some other blog)..
This increase in knowledge leads to atoms, elements, compounds, biological life and beings with capability to analyze knowledge.
They get endowed with desire to realize/understand themselves, the Universe and understand what is behind all this play. This desire is derived from the original desire of the ParamAtma.
At some point of time, may be, the desire will be reached or may not be reached. Beings intelligent may go very near to understanding the complete saguna brahman and try to reach the ParamAtma. By that time, the Universal expansion may take it to destruction and the whole Universe may collapse.
Kalpa - A day of Brahma
If we believe the Puranas, Brahma (Gravity)s one day is one kalpa. After 100 years of Brahma Universe gets destroyed when brahma (gravity) goes to sleep. Then Brahma (Gravity) wakes up again and the entire process starts again.
Within the 100 years of Brahma, whether the knowledge of paramAtma is reached or not, I dont know. May be it just the effort. But we are seeded with the nature to drive towards increasing our analyzable knowledge. We will be doing it, irrespective of anything else.
There is no un-realization. As the Knowledge of beings approach a better understanding of the ParamAtma, Universe may reach the 100 Brahma year and may be getting destroyed as gravity goes off (Brahma goes to sleep). We are in to svetavaraha kalpa, the 50th year of Brahma.
This is not science. This is just a supposition.
Time- Fourth dimension of space
Is paramAtma bound by space-time..? We do not know of it. Like the quantum world whose physics is different from classical world, it may have totally different characteristics, which we may never know.
Is Time created by paramAtma..? Time is not a physical entity at all. It is the fourth dimension of space. It is a part of four dimensional SpaceTime continuum. What parmAtma created is the spacetime curvature and its evolution, which gives us the perception of time.
The saguna-brahman part of it is bound by space-time. Universe is in spacetime continuum.
I am trying to paint a picture here of various aspects, not to create believers in what I say, but to be clear in whatever I state.
Easwaro Rakshatu.
-TBT
Shatki (Momentum) or mAyA (Mass)..?
While positive responses give me energy (Shiva) to continue, dissent gives me momentum (Shakti) to respond with more details.
Shakti is Momentum in reality, while she is perceived as mAyA (rest-mass) by us. Science says what exists in reality is momentum (and energy). Rest-Mass is the perception that covers the Universe.
Our scripture also say the same. They say it is Shakti who appears as mAyA.
Now to see mAyA as an illusion of life may be one view. To perceive mAyA as a perception of mass in place of Shakti (momentum), which is the reality, is science view.
Our scriptures say mAyA is feminine form of Vishnu and Brahma raises from the Nabhi of Vishnu. We can see it as Mass being a feminine form of Inertia (that undergoes changes) and Gravity arising from its Center.
We can also see them as God-forms and paint pictures of them as Brahma arising from the navel of Vishnu.
Vaisvanara (Particle) and Taijasa (wave)
Similar is the dual nature of photons, electrons, neutrons and other particles. They are a probability density function with a similar to wave characteristics and are also quantized to exhibit matter like characteristics.
As Brhadaranyaka Upanishad says "द्वे भाव ब्रह्मणो " - Brahman (Evolution) manifests duality. Now this duality can be seen as light and dark, life and death, limited and unlimited, defined and undefined.
We know today there are millions of shades of grey. But we may not question this understanding of light and dark and accept them as they are.
But we can also see them as Wave and Particle. In fact Mandukya Upanishad talks precisely of Vaisva-Nara of Sthula (Gross) and Taijasa (light/Wave) of Suksuma, which means Particle and Wave.
Single particle Hilbert spaces
Hilbert spaces are infinite dimensional vector spaces for mathematical modeling. If we apply Hilbert space to particles and talk of (single) particle Hilbert spaces, then depending energy, momentum, spin of the particle, it is the space of all possible states of a particle.
Yes, these particles cannot be imagined as a sthula/gross matter present in an euclidean space. But thats what exactly the Vedas and Puranas say.
Indra, Aira/sachi, Aswins, Maruts, Rudras are not mortal forms. They exist in a different world altogether, which has different rules and have different forms. They exhibit duality of Nara and Taijasa.
So there is nothing wrong in mapping Indra to baryons or Aira/sachi to electrons. Nowhere they are said to be of sthula form.
In fact if we understand the Puranas they say there are three worlds Nara-Loka (biological world), Deva-loka (world of elements/chemicals) and pAthala loka (Quantum world buried deep in atoms).
These three worlds have different beings residing in them. They have different characteristics and nature.
Yes we can understand these three lokas as world of devas, humans and nagas/danavas etc, where we visualize devas and nagas and danavas as similar to human beings. But that is our one type of understanding. We can also see them as biological, chemical and physical/quantum worlds.
Purusha as Dark-Matter
Dark-Matter is a matter that lurks in the Universe which we infer from our mathematical calculations, but are not able to detect it as it does not interact with matter. It is supposed to be 3/4th of the Universe roughly.
Purusha suktam says Purusha is 3/4th of the Universe and Aitareya Upanishad says Purusha is not influenced by Prakrti anytime at all. Purusha is this un-influenced bed on which the Yajna or sacrifice or cosmic evolution takes place.
Now is Purusha Dark-matter..? Well thats my hypothesis.
Not just that. We can talk of euclidean spacetime (four dimensional space), conflict between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, spacetime warping etc from puranic viewpoints. But thats a large answer later.
Saguna-Nirguna Brahman
Param-Atma or the Nir-guna brahman may be some kind of un-differentiated bundle of energy or consciousness or intelligence before the Universal evolution.
Due to the desire to realize itself, which means produce knowledge to understand itself, the Atma leads to what one can call as Saguna brahman whose attributes are Vishnu (Inertia), mAya(rest-mass), Brahma (Gravity), Shakti (momentum), Shiva (Energy) etc.
Once the saguna Brahman comes out, the Nirguna brahman does not control it. The saguna brahman is an isolated system which Nir-guna brahman does not interfere with it.
What I wrote here was, this Universal evolution or Yajna or Sacrifice is a result of that Param-Atma to convert some of that consciousness into Knowledge. The realization is this conversion to knowledge.
Entropy - Savitr
The knowledge in the Universe can also viewed as information or dis-order and hence entropy of it. The entropy of an isolated system keeps on increasing. That is science. I call this entropy as Savitr. (why in some other blog)..
This increase in knowledge leads to atoms, elements, compounds, biological life and beings with capability to analyze knowledge.
They get endowed with desire to realize/understand themselves, the Universe and understand what is behind all this play. This desire is derived from the original desire of the ParamAtma.
At some point of time, may be, the desire will be reached or may not be reached. Beings intelligent may go very near to understanding the complete saguna brahman and try to reach the ParamAtma. By that time, the Universal expansion may take it to destruction and the whole Universe may collapse.
Kalpa - A day of Brahma
If we believe the Puranas, Brahma (Gravity)s one day is one kalpa. After 100 years of Brahma Universe gets destroyed when brahma (gravity) goes to sleep. Then Brahma (Gravity) wakes up again and the entire process starts again.
Within the 100 years of Brahma, whether the knowledge of paramAtma is reached or not, I dont know. May be it just the effort. But we are seeded with the nature to drive towards increasing our analyzable knowledge. We will be doing it, irrespective of anything else.
There is no un-realization. As the Knowledge of beings approach a better understanding of the ParamAtma, Universe may reach the 100 Brahma year and may be getting destroyed as gravity goes off (Brahma goes to sleep). We are in to svetavaraha kalpa, the 50th year of Brahma.
This is not science. This is just a supposition.
Time- Fourth dimension of space
Is paramAtma bound by space-time..? We do not know of it. Like the quantum world whose physics is different from classical world, it may have totally different characteristics, which we may never know.
Is Time created by paramAtma..? Time is not a physical entity at all. It is the fourth dimension of space. It is a part of four dimensional SpaceTime continuum. What parmAtma created is the spacetime curvature and its evolution, which gives us the perception of time.
The saguna-brahman part of it is bound by space-time. Universe is in spacetime continuum.
I am trying to paint a picture here of various aspects, not to create believers in what I say, but to be clear in whatever I state.
Easwaro Rakshatu.
-TBT
Thanks for taking time to respond. Your response has not addressed the contradictions pointed out earlier.
I do appreciate your positive attitude of welcoming dissent.
However, I am not able to respond even with dissent because your response appears to me to be a jumble of words.
It neither conveys to me understanding of basic Science nor anything that is taught in our scriptures. Perhaps it does to others.
I do appreciate the engagement thus far
Regards
PS: I am beginning to appreciate the words of Nobel Laureate Venkatraman Ramakrishnan.
Unlike this Nobel Laureate, I understand that the ancient sages and other scientists of from India through many thousands of years have contributed immensely to understanding the reality of the universe, space-time and advancement of technologies. However psedo-science of today with play of meaningless words have distorted true teaching that reflects India's seminal contributions to Science and technology. In fact it has made a mockery of both the philosophical foundations as well as modern science.
My comments above are not directed at Sri TBT though his post reminded me to share this view.
I am beginning to appreciate the comments of Sri Venkataraman.
"In a damning charge, scientist Venkatraman Ramakrishnan has slammed the ongoing Indian Science Congress, being held in Mysuru, and called it a 'circus'. The Indian-born Nobel laureate had earlier condemned the Science Congress and said that politics and religious ideologies shouldn't be mixed with science.Speaking to reporters, Ramakrishnan said, "I attended one day (of an earlier Congress) and very little science was discussed. It was a circus. I find that it's an organisation where very little science is discussed. I will never attend a science congress again in my life."