Quote:
Originally Posted by a-TB
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Dear Mr Zebra16:
Your response is well written and understandable. Thank you. I have some questions & objections.
1. Raw material(s) may remain the same, but there is still creation in creating a world trade center, bangles, etc. Raw materials did not just come together on their own to become something else. The world has so much variety even at a raw levels - so many animals, worms, insects, human beings .. There have to be one or many creators. If it is not Brahman, who is it?
2. There are creator(s) perhaps who are distinct from created. The person who made the bangle is not the bangle. So creation and created are not one and the same from the examples. This is contrary to one and only one Brahman
3. OK, so all the basic raw material may remain the same in all creations - you call that Brahman. Fine. But then the world did not come out of nothing. Someone had to be involved in assembling at a raw material level of intelligence. A bangle is possible because Gold has the property to be molded into any shape. That intelligence of Gold has to be there for someone to make a bangle. So Brahman has to be intelligent.
Looked up some write up on the 'blind watch maker'. It is true that nature goes through trillions of combinations (Mr Auh's point). It is like a child who has lego pieces to try all kinds of things and stumble on a shape. But Lego maker allowed for such a thing to be made. So the creator of the raw material in this world has to have been intelligent.
5. Richard Dawkin's point about variations giving rise to something intelligent cannot apply to living things and their variations. It can apply to nature of non-living things. For him to apply this to living things is a stretch.
6. So what is god in all this - who is omnipotent , omni whatever etc?
Your response is well written and understandable. Thank you. I have some questions & objections.
1. Raw material(s) may remain the same, but there is still creation in creating a world trade center, bangles, etc. Raw materials did not just come together on their own to become something else. The world has so much variety even at a raw levels - so many animals, worms, insects, human beings .. There have to be one or many creators. If it is not Brahman, who is it?
2. There are creator(s) perhaps who are distinct from created. The person who made the bangle is not the bangle. So creation and created are not one and the same from the examples. This is contrary to one and only one Brahman
3. OK, so all the basic raw material may remain the same in all creations - you call that Brahman. Fine. But then the world did not come out of nothing. Someone had to be involved in assembling at a raw material level of intelligence. A bangle is possible because Gold has the property to be molded into any shape. That intelligence of Gold has to be there for someone to make a bangle. So Brahman has to be intelligent.
Looked up some write up on the 'blind watch maker'. It is true that nature goes through trillions of combinations (Mr Auh's point). It is like a child who has lego pieces to try all kinds of things and stumble on a shape. But Lego maker allowed for such a thing to be made. So the creator of the raw material in this world has to have been intelligent.
5. Richard Dawkin's point about variations giving rise to something intelligent cannot apply to living things and their variations. It can apply to nature of non-living things. For him to apply this to living things is a stretch.
6. So what is god in all this - who is omnipotent , omni whatever etc?
yathA vachO nivarthanthE, aprApya manassA sahA.............
So it is evident all these questions that have been raised here by several members have long back been raised by our ancestors too. Only they quickly came to the conclusion that God or creator or whatever else you call it is something that cannot be defined within the coordinates and with the languages that human beings know, understand and utilise.
So while some were stuck with the unknown indefinable and indeterminate entity as just the"unknown,indefinable,indeterminate" entity or at best a " all pervading universal consciousness", someothers, who could not stop trying, took the best available route to deal with this entity with their equipment. They gave it the best form, the best attributes and the best and beyond everything a human mind can comprehend and started calling it God for convenience. They too knew IT is not just God but it is the nearest to God they could bring into this world. They dealt with it like they would have dealt with a real God. They saluted their kings. So also these people did a pranAm to the God before them. They offered their valuable gifts to the king; So also they did the same to this God form created by them. When they needed help they begged of their king. So also these prayed to the God. When felt totally helpless they surrendered to their king and they did the same to their God whom they considered superior to all the kings. They benefited immensely with this form of identification of God and praying. Otherwise the doubt and the confusion would have taken their heavy toll.
It is a different story that God entity was also coming handy in organizing the society. God and temples in course of time also became rallying points for large sections of the society. It did not stop with that. Once organized, competition for available resources led to wars and stratification of society.
It is to the credit of our forefathers of this land called the karmabhoomi that they could think and explore so deep and far into the imponderable and discern forms and solutions to a basic dilemma which is as old as human existence.
In our scriptures there is scope for one to be an informed atheist, a believer in universal consciousness or a believer in a personal God with form and fame. We do not quarrel on this. That is the greatness of our heritage and culture and of course our genes. LOL. We have no infidels who deserve to be slain.